Topaz Eyes ([info]topaz_eyes) wrote,

Thinky thoughts about House, Stacy, Thirteen and Foreman

So I was musing (in the shower, of course) about the recent developments in the Foreteen arc, thinking about replies to various commenters on previous posts--and I promise I will get to them--when I started thinking about House's comments to Foreman regarding the clinical trial and whether Foreman should switch Thirteen's drug. House outlines all the reasons why it was a Bad Idea.

But when Foreman turns to leave, House says, "But if you love her...then you do stupid things." In my last House post I said I felt a definite Stacy vibe there.

Today, my brain hamster woke up and cranked the light bulb, and I realized why I felt that way: because we are witnessing House's and Stacy's story playing out with Thirteen and Foreman.

Love her or hate her, Thirteen's been getting a huge amount of air time relative to the other characters.  TPTB have been anvilicious clear on outlining her similarities to House, but there's a good reason.  Over the past season they've been setting her, and we the viewers, up, for next week's episode.  She learns she has a devastating and incurable disease that is ultimately lethal.  She copes with it in a self-destructive manner.  Foreman befriends her.  Foreman conveniently gets to assist in running a (double-blind--this is important) clinical trial for a possible Huntington's cure.  He gets her into the trial as a test subject.  They start falling for each other.  She starts improving, becomes happier.

Then the anvil ball drops.

Foreman learns something he shouldn't have:  Thirteen's on the placebo.  Of course, Thirteen doesn't know this--she knows that she has an even chance of receiving either test drug or placebo.  This should would have been explained to her before she started the trial, and she should would have entered the trial knowing that.  That's how double-blind trials run on the patient side.  On the trial design side, the researchers don't know who gets what either.  Only after the data crunching do the patient codes get revealed, so a fair comparison can be made.  (Cue me throttling the nurse for spilling the info to Foreman in the first place.)

Now Foreman has the Big Ethical Dilemma.  Thirteen can't know what she's taking--that skews the results.  So should he switch drugs on her without her knowledge, in an attempt to cure her?

Doesn't that sound familiar?

We only got to see House's and Stacy's story in flashback, most notably "Three Stories," but also in offhand comments in other episodes that suggest, now, just how similar the Thirteen/Foreman situation is to House/Stacy.  There are differences, of course:  House's leg infarction was immediately life-threatening, while Thirteen's Huntington's isn't; House and Stacy were already in a long-term and committed relationship, while Thirteen and Foreman's relationship was just beginning.

What's the same, though, is that both House and Thirteen made supposedly informed decisions regarding going into induced coma, and participating in the clinical trial, respectively.  They both knew there were no guarantees, but they chose those paths.  They had compelling reasons to choose those paths--they both wanted to live as whole beings.

But Stacy, and now Foreman, chose something else for them.  They both had information that neither House nor Thirteen had:  Stacy learned of the tissue debridement from Cuddy, while Foreman learned about the placebo from the nurse.  (Edited to correct; thank you [info]blackmare_9  and [info]shutterbug_12 !)  They used that information for made their choices based on their own ends and needs, forcing their choices on House and Thirteen because they were both in the dark (one of them literally), believing that that's what House and Thirteen would have chosen.

We know what happened to House and Stacy.

Next week we learn the consequences for Thirteen and Foreman.  From the preview, they ain't gonna be pretty.

This is why I think House's "but if you love her..." comment is crucial to the whole Foreteen arc.  It shows that he understands, maybe even possibly now accepts, the reasons for what Stacy did to him.  Now he'll get to witness the consequences for Foreteen, not as one involved, but as a dispassionate bystander.  Maybe TPTB want this to make a difference in House's worldview.  Dunno.  But next week's episode is the payoff for the arc, for sure.
Tags: musings-house

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  • 21 comments

[info]euclase

January 29 2009, 17:18:31 UTC 3 years ago

*applauds*

Yes yes yes, I agree with all of this. This is why I like Thirteen so much. Because... she's House objectified. It doesn't work if you think of Thirteen as her own story (the fact that she's called a number and not a name clued me in from the beginning). She works VERY well if you think of her as a facet of House, though. Like a House Redux.

Hooray for your shower, lol.

[info]topaz_eyes

February 1 2009, 17:18:42 UTC 3 years ago

The shower seems to be the only place anymore where I have anything resembling a thought process. :-)

I rather hoped that Thirteen's name wasn't going to be another anvil, but now that it is, yeah, her story works perfectly as a House Redux.

[info]namasteyoga

January 29 2009, 17:28:00 UTC 3 years ago

I always took it that House knew the debridement option (Cuddy starts to bring it up the first time we see the two of them together, and he cuts her off), but that he didn't consider that Stacy would have been aware of it or willing to go against his will once he was incapacitated. Which still is mirrored with 13 and Foreman, I think, in that 13 wouldn't expect Foreman to do something in that situation while Foreman -- like Stacy -- does something stupid because of love.

I have been glad to see this arc finally getting its legs under itself and moving toward something. I was certain that David Shore had a plan, but damnit, he does get caught up in the early stages of telling stories and lets things meander too much to the point everyone's screaming at him, doesn't he?

I think both Foreman and Stacy had a moment of the knife being twisted as they were making their decisions as well. Obviously with Stacy in a one-episode story, it was just those few moments, as House says he loves her and tells her she has nothing to be sorry about. With Foreman, it's seeing Thirteen talk about the possibility of having children -- actually looking forward to something because she's started to hope for a longer life span on the drugs, and he knows it's just the placebo affect.

There's definitely a whole vibe about how emotions screw up what should be simple hypothetical questions. Patient rights/drug trials are very simple to process if you don't actually care about the person involved.

And I'm just glad that I've been unspoiled to let the arc play out -- when it was maddening and now that it's picking up steam.

[info]topaz_eyes

February 1 2009, 17:24:58 UTC 3 years ago

Yeah, I goofed up on the debridement option. Thankfully Mare and Shutterbug set me right.

Part of me wants to think that DS needed that much time to set up Thirteen's backstory. Part of me wishes that half of it occurred off-screen.

The knife twisting is what makes Stacy's and Foreman's decisions all the more tragic: they decided the fates of their relatively happy loved ones, and their decisions didn't work out. Yet another what you want/what you need dichotomy.

Patient rights/drug trials are very simple to process if you don't actually care about the person involved.

That obvious conflict of interest is why Foreman should not have been involved directly with her care in the first place. I'd consider that the ultimate cause of the treatment arc.

[info]elynittria

January 29 2009, 17:35:46 UTC 3 years ago

Brilliant analysis! I think I can actually watch enjoy next week's episode if I think of it in these terms.

[info]topaz_eyes

February 1 2009, 17:25:56 UTC 3 years ago

A lot of people are hating on Thirteen. I think if I didn't overanalyze the show to death I wouldn't like it so much. :-)

[info]earlwyn

January 29 2009, 17:39:41 UTC 3 years ago

I'm no longer abreast with recent House events apart from what I can skim from people's reaction posts and metas, but --

I'd put my money on your theory. You always seem to Know About These Things.

And I love that House's comment could mean that he understands, if doesn't necessarily forive, Stacy for her part in his leg pain. The buried remnants of my shipper heart go all a-flutter.

[info]topaz_eyes

February 1 2009, 17:29:24 UTC 3 years ago

Really, my conclusions are just stabs in the dark, but I love it when I'm right. :-)

The leg pain is a constant reminder of what Stacy did, and that must still wear and tear at House. So it'll be interesting to see how he reacts as a bystander to the upcoming Foreteen crisis.

[info]blackmare_9

January 29 2009, 17:47:08 UTC 3 years ago Edited:  January 29 2009, 17:49:04 UTC

House did know about the debridement option and didn't want it. And Thirteen made it clear that she knew from the start that she might be on a placebo. She was okay with that.

I hope you're right, though, about this arc meaning something other than "Oh look! Hawt bisexual dying chick is Mysterious and Interesting!" Because frankly I'm well past running out of patience, but I've ranted enough about that.

I do think it's interesting that Foreman has chosen to risk his career for her when they've only just become involved. And that he's chosen to do in essence the same thing Cameron once did -- and he accused her of avoiding real commitment. I'll be disappointed if she doesn't have anything to say to him about that.

Editing to add that I felt it showed very clearly in the Stacy arc that House ultimately understood why she did what she did and forgave her for it. I think that's already been done, but it's still fascinating that he said what he said to Foreman. Closet romantic much, House?

[info]topaz_eyes

February 1 2009, 17:33:02 UTC 3 years ago

Yes, thank you, I corrected it in the original post. :-) This is why I have such a great f-list. I need to be kept in line.

House forgave Stacy in the Stacy arc, but that doesn't mean he ever stopped thinking about it. I think that's the main reason for his "If you love her..." A lot of major life changes come with "What if?" regrets. And House has that constant reminder, which itself is draining, since he's admitted his pain's getting worse.

[info]karaokegal

January 29 2009, 19:07:12 UTC 3 years ago Edited:  January 29 2009, 19:08:20 UTC

I think you're putting way more thought and continuity attention into it than the crack monkeys. The fact that they actually mentioned the surgery a few weeks ago was pretty shocking. I doubt that anything about House/Stacy will be made explicit, but it is a great piece of subtext.

I took House's "if you love her..." far more darkly, probably not a surprise. Love Hurts and Sex Kills. They're not just titles, they're as much themes of the show as Everybody Lies and People Don't Change. House knows that Foreman will do something incredibly stupid. Considering that even Cameron said "Don't be an idiot," and we then saw Foreman be an idiot, I think it's a general diss of love in the House-verse period.

Although if Love Hurts, specifically because of Stacy and there was hope for House before her, then you're on the right track whether the crack monkeys acknowledge it or not.

[info]topaz_eyes

February 1 2009, 17:40:22 UTC 3 years ago

Considering that even Cameron said "Don't be an idiot," and we then saw Foreman be an idiot, I think it's a general diss of love in the House-verse period.

Is it a diss of love? I think it's more a "Be careful of what you wish for--you may get it" theme. In my own life I can think of two major life decisions I made (partly) out of love. And I know others at the time thought--God, she's an idiot. I'm pretty sure everyone has a story or two like that in her own life. :-)

And I think it's a parable about making decisions based on emotion and not reason. You need both, as House is slowly learning, because basing decisions on either alone has their problems.

I love love love the titles TPTB choose for the episodes, because of the many layers to them.

I look at my overanalyzing as a protective mechanism. If I can justify the reasons why and they make sense to me, I can keep watching as a happy clam. :-)

[info]karaokegal

February 1 2009, 18:30:51 UTC 3 years ago

Has romantic love ever turned out well for anyone on this show or a so-called happy relationship NOT been proven to be a lie?



[info]topaz_eyes

February 1 2009, 19:59:56 UTC 3 years ago

I think it falls more into House's edict that there's no such thing as unconditional love. People lie in romantic relationships because secretly they believe love is conditional. On this show, romantic love doesn't work because the characters can't or don't move on from their betrayal.

[info]shutterbug_12

January 29 2009, 19:09:57 UTC 3 years ago Edited:  January 29 2009, 19:40:48 UTC

I agree with [info]blackmare_9 about this: I felt it showed very clearly in the Stacy arc that House ultimately understood why she did what she did and forgave her for it. But, I think that comment showed that he still rolls it over in his mind, and Stacy's ghost will linger for him as long as his leg pain does, at least. I do think that Stacy, their relationship, the infarction, the end of their relationship, and all the situations surrounding those things still guide a lot of House's choices and it's interesting to see this come up again in such a direct way.

I just watched Three Stories, coincidentally, and House knew about the debridement option, but it seemed like he wanted to keep that from Stacy. The reasons why interest me, but I won't start blabbing about that. Also, Stacy knew that the choice she was making was one that House would not have chosen, but she did it believing that it was the better choice. Actually, no, let me revise that and say that she didn't believe it was a choice he'd make for himself in this circumstance, because it also seems clear to me that she knew he would make this choice if it was: for one of his patients, that he would advocate this choice (at least a choice for amputation), and if he was thinking objectively, thereby making it the better, rational choice. I don't, however, agree that Stacy only made this choice "for her own ends and needs". I think any choice we make is motivated at least partially for those reasons, and I don't doubt that Stacy wanted to keep him alive because she loved him, but I think that she made this choice with House's best interest in mind, not just her own, because she knew this wouldn't bode well for her, ultimately. I think that Stacy believed in House in other ways, that, unlike him, she felt that he deserved to live, that he was worthy of it, with a whole two legs, or one leg, or half-a-leg, and that he had something to gain by living. I don't think this is quite mirrored in Foreman in the exact same way, but I still think it's very close.

But, after all that, I've thought about this myself, and I've been reaching similar conclusions about this arc, and, personally, I think it's the most worthwhile and interesting arc that's gone on all season. It seems that in a lot of ways Foreman and Thirteen's arc is a very accelerated version of House and Stacy's situation. I'm interested to see if it will be mirrored even more if Thirteen decides that she'd rather die than suffer through the effects of her disease, and if this becomes an ethical choice for either Foreman or House, for whatever reason.

[info]topaz_eyes

February 1 2009, 17:44:43 UTC 3 years ago

Thank you for correcting me--this is why I love you guys. ♥

House knew about the debridement option, but it seemed like he wanted to keep that from Stacy. The reasons why interest me, but I won't start blabbing about that.

I won't stop you from blabbing! This has always fascinated me too, when the apathy about his own life really started, and why.

[info]roga

January 29 2009, 22:26:24 UTC 3 years ago

I really love your interpretation of this! That is all :-)

[info]topaz_eyes

February 1 2009, 17:45:14 UTC 3 years ago

Yay, thank you! ♥

[info]daasgrrl

January 29 2009, 23:33:01 UTC 3 years ago

Oh, I like that a lot. I have to admit, I've been drifting away from House since the H/W was resolved *g*. And it's not that I hate 13, because I don't, and I'm actually quite happy about the whole 'Foreteen' thing, in a detached kind of way, but I have never understood why 13 is so important, apart from my 'David Shore likes his young female character' speculations.

I too got a very 'closet romantic' vibe from House's comment, but didn't quite get why he had said that. However, reading your interpretation makes the whole Foreman/13 thing suddenly more interesting in that light!

...and of course it suddenly - and inevitably - occured to me that if 13 is proxy!House, and she's bisexual, then that must mean... wait, never mind ;)

[info]topaz_eyes

February 1 2009, 17:54:28 UTC 3 years ago

...and of course it suddenly - and inevitably - occured to me that if 13 is proxy!House, and she's bisexual, then that must mean...

Oh please, do go on. :-D

I think the series has firmly established House as an idealist, with the caveat that his idealism is not tempered by cynicism, it's smothered by it. Which fits with the idea of his being a closet romantic, if by romantic you mean "imbued with or dominated by idealism" (yay for Dictionary.com!) So I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks of love in terms of ideal soul mates. He's quite free-thinking about sexuality, after all. :-D Explains the bromance with Wilson, y/y?

[info]namasteyoga

February 3 2009, 02:42:15 UTC 3 years ago

Heh. This seems to be even more thoughtful after "Greater Good."
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